Camera purchase now or wait?

[gareth thomson]

Sorry if this is a tired thread.


Trying to decide about a camera purchase and timing…


I currently shoot a Pentax K-5, which has a good 16 megapixel APS-C sensor and a rugged body, but there's a shortage of long lenses for the Pentax mount. True, Pentax recently introduced a 560mm f5.6 but it's f5.6 and lacks a focus limiter… as does the only other long lens for the Pentax mount, the Sigma 500 f4.5. There are older Pentax lenses available on the used market, but they are hard to come by. Besides the K-5 has a primitive AF system, which is probably 10 years behind the current generation of Canikon products. I rented a Canon 1D4 over the summer and was amazed at how flexible and tenacious the AF was - once it locked it never let go. The Pentax never locks. Keeping a bif in focus is frustrating.


So, I'm going to want to move to Canon or Nikon, and would prefer a crop body in order to maximize the pixel count on the subject w/ a 500mm lens - as I don't like shooting from blinds or working w/ a setup - and so will almost always be focal length limited.


Currently the APS-C choices are limited: The Nikon D7000 is a fine camera, having the same Sony sensor as the K-5. But it shoots at only 6 fps and apart from the AF doesn't seem like much of an upgrade. I have thought about the Nikon D800, but again speed and file size are its shortcoming, though it's produced a number of great shots on this forum. And on the Canon side, the 7D - while still a very good camera, is getting a bit long in the tooth.


Obviously I could pick up a D7000 or a used 7D and a 500mm lens - and when Canon or Nikon do come out w/ a new APS-C body, move up then. But if there's something imminent in the wings, I would prefer to wait.


So, has anyone heard if Canon will be updating its APS-C line any time soon? Are they working on a new sensor to compete w/ Sony? What about Nikon? Has anyone heard if they are they planning to release a new crop-body camera?

Thanks,
gt

[Roger Clark]

Gareth,

You said "prefer a crop body in order to maximize the pixel count" but crop factor has nothing to do with pixels on subject. The key metric is pixel pitch (pixel size), though crop sensors sometimes do have smaller pixels, like the 7D. For reach on focal length limited subject, the most pixels on subject is a combination of focal length and/or pixel size. For example, a 7D +500 mm + 1.4x TC will give very close to the same pixels on subject, signal to noise ratio (with the same exposure time) and same depth of field as a 1D Mark IV + 500mm +2x TC.

Rumours about when a company introduces a new camera are often in error. Consider a used camera for now and then when a new camera comes out in a year or two, your present camera can be a backup camera.

Roger

[John Guastella]

I have thought about the Nikon D800,

I shoot birds with a Canon 7D and 500mm f/4 lens, but if I was just starting out I would not hesitate to buy the D800. I've seen examples of massive crops from that camera, and the IQ remains very good to excellent. I've also seen examples of D800 images where the shadows were pushed multiple stops, also with excellent results.

file size...its shortcoming

IMO, when considering a camera nowadays, file size is a non-issue. You can buy a couple of Seagate 2TB drives for 200 bucks, and the latest Ivy Bridge CPUs will have no trouble processing large image files. Computer capabilities will only get better over the next few years, so the ability to process and store large files will become commonplace.

Pentax recently introduced a 560mm f5.6 but it's f5.6

I have to comment on this point: What's wrong with f/5.6? On the Canon internet forums that I read regularly, a frequent Canon wishlist lens is a 500mm f/5.6. It would be awesome for BIF because of the weight reductions, and probably at least a few thousand US dollars less than the 500mm f/4.

John

[dankearl]

Gareth,
I Personally have nothing against Canon, it is the choice of most here, But Nikon has surpassed them in my opinion.
The D800 file size is not a problem.
I Process the files on a 2008 Mac with a 2 gig memory.
I plan on upgrading but it works fine.
I don't know why you want a cropped sensor, a 50% crop of a D800 file is still 18mp.
I have a D7000, a fine camera if you never shoot over iso 400.
The D800 has better IQ at iso 1600. A huge difference for bird photography, in fact a complete game changer if you ask me.
You live on the brighter side of Oregon, maybe you don't need the low light capability as much, on this side of the Cascades,
It is a necessity for bird photography.

[Corey Hayes]

Hello Gareth

I was in your exact same situation as I had the K5 and DA300 but I wanted a longer lens and found a great deal on a canon 500 f4 so I picked up the 7d. I have been very un happy with the IQ from the 7D there are alot of noise for example I get the same noise at 640 on the 7D that I got at 1600 on the k5.

I would recommend the 1dmk4 or go to Nikon for the D800 as long as its fast enough for you.


or wait a few months and see if the next 7D is any good.

I should say even though the 7D iQ is not as goo the lens and the AF make up for it as I have got shots that were impossible with the k5.


hope that helps

[David Stephens]

I suspect that the Nikon D800 is a fine camera, but I'm not sure that it's well suited for birds in flight or anything that moves fast. I saw a direct comparison with the 1D X and it's accurate focus was not near as consistent and the FPS is really slow. The 1D MkIV has a great AF system and the 5D MkIII is a major step up from the 7D.

It doesn't matter how many pixels you have on the subject if you can't achieve critical focus. In focal length limited situations, the 7D will get more pixels on the subject, but it's got similar problems with AF and its own problems with ISOs over 800.

[dankearl]

David,
the slow frame rate may be a problem but the focus is certainly not.
Look at the Cooper Hawk photo posted by Alan Murphy the other day or any number of his BIF photos.
I think you are wrong, I get far more keepers with the D800 than I ever got with the D7000, I think the AF is
very good and I use tc's.

[gareth thomson]

Hey everyone - thanks for all the help.

When I said I wanted a crop body I was generalizing.... isn't it true that most ff cameras can't put as many pixels on a small bird at a distance as a crop?? The D800 being the obvious exception. But thanks for the clarification Roger - clearly I do need an education in this area. I'll read up on pixel pitch. I think you have posted something on your site...??

On the processing end of things: I have a 2011 iMac 2/ a 2 TB hard drive and a 1 TB external... 16 gigs of ram, so I suppose the file size won't be too much of an issue except when processing raw files as smart objects in Photoshop. I mentioned file size in my original post simply because I have read so much about the drawback of mega file size.

And thanks Corey -- good to know that other Pentax users have jumped ship (had I known I would have enjoyed shooting birds, I would never have bought into Pentax, but hindsight...).

Some of you have suggested the 1D4. I rented that this summer and was dumbfounded by the killer AF, but not all that blown away by IQ (unless I was doing something dreadfully wrong, the IQ wasn't a whole lot better than my K-5). Corey have you shot w/ a 1D4? Wondering if you noted the same thing about IQ relative to the K-5? If your experience doesn't match mine, I'll have to rent it again to see if it was my lousy technique.

And Dan, thanks for that bit of info about the D7000 and its limitations. Good to know.

John you asked "what's wrong w/ f5.6 on the new pentax 560mm"?. I was under the impression that getting that lovely, creamy bg blur was a function of aperture. Anyway, Pentax wants $7K for the thing, which seems outrageous for a simple 7 element lens design w/ no focus limiter and a screw drive.... Doesn't much matter as the pentax AF makes any of their lens offerings a moot point.

I suppose there's no perfect system, and some of this might boil down to timing and finding a good used lens. But I am so frustrated w/ the K-5 AF and my lack of reach.. that I'm getting antsy but don't want to make a rash decision.

[Corey Hayes]

I have used a buddy's mk4 and the IQ is very close I would even give a slight edge to the K5.

The K5 is one the best DSLR you can buy it just is not good for shooting birds, they also don't have TC so and there long lens line is very limited.

If money is an issue I would try and get the 500 f4 then just get a 7d cheap then wait for something better or get the 1dmkiv.

the 1DX is awesome but you have to be rich to own that because you need a 600mm or 800mm to make up for the full frame, I have not seen many shots of any animals that are very shy sure if you shoot at a feeder or can get really close then it would be awesome but for real world shooting its a step back.

Even when I look at Aurthur Morris shots most are shore birds and he shoots a lot of them in Florida or places where they are used to people.

hope that helps

[John Guastella]

I was under the impression that getting that lovely, creamy bg blur was a function of aperture.

The difference in BG blur between f/5.6 and f/4 is not as dramatic as most people think it is. And frankly, in most cases you can easily post-process in Photoshop a BG blur with more-than-acceptable bokeh. I typically find that in most cases I want as much of the bird as possible in the focal plane, so I rarely use aperture settings wider than f/8, and if I need more blur in the BG, I create it using suitable layer masks. Bottom line: for certain types of bird photography -- particularly BIF -- the advantages of a 500mm f/5.6 lens would definitely outweigh the disadvantages.

John

[Nancy Phillips]

I too have been anxiously awaiting a Canon 7DMkII, but in the meantime I am shooting with a 60D and find it adequate for my beginner level skills. Together with the Canon 400mm f/5.6, I have a lightweight handholdable kit, ideal for learning to shoot BIF and for hiking (the camera you have with you is better than one that stays home). The 60D may not focus as consistently and shoot as fast as a 7D (5 fps vs 8+ fps), but that just forces me to get more precise about getting focus in the first place when shooting BIF. I am not shooting for stock or sales, so I don't need to print above 8 x 12 anyway. No question about it, I have lens envy when I see 500mm and 600mm f/4 lenses :), but practically speaking, I would get more bang for the buck with a better focusing system and faster processing algorithm of the hoped-for 7DII .

BTW, pixel pitch is 4.3 microns on the 60D and 7D, which share the same basic sensor configuration but have differing autofocus and processing. For comparison, pixel pitch on the Canon 5DIII is 6.2 microns, on the Nikon D800 is 4.9 microns. The smaller the pixel pitch, the more detail can be captured. The price is that the photon collector fills to capacity much sooner than with larger pixels, and so signal to noise ratio is worse for small-pixel cameras at higher ISOs.

[allanrube]

Just a Nikon comment. They are putting out many cameras but they had not replaced the fps on the 3+ year old D300s. Many Nikon users are hoping for a replacement early next year.

[gareth thomson]

Guess a lot of us are waiting either for the long overdue replacement for the 7D or for the mythical Nikon D400. In the meantime, all we can do is take advantage of days w/ good light and shoot w/ what we have.