Using Audio for Photographing Birds: The Basics.

Arthur Morris said:

Hey George, It is a good product and is cheap, cheap. The guy got all the photographers to donate their images, quite a few decent ones in fact, and has sold a zillion of them by undercutting all of the other products, the ones that paid photographers fairly. Shame on all of those who gave this guy their images for nothing. Hats off to the guy for being smart enough to get good, free images and make boatloads of money.

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On one of the other nature sites, a couple of photographers openly discuss how they donated, not just a few, but hundreds of images. It is mindboggling to think that someone can develop a product, and have an essential component given to you so you can make money with it.

It is difficult to prove one way or another if taping is harmful or not. I haven't done a great deal of it, but one thing I have noticed is that it only works for a very short time. In areas that are taped heavily, the birds ignore the call. I suspect they learn the dialect and recognize it for the "phantom" that it is.

I think it falls in to a similar realm as baiting owls. Difficult to prove any harm, but not everyone's cup of tea, and it generates strong emotions on either side of the debate.

Well Put...

I have been away on a trip....first time, I've been on line....I agree completely with Dan's comment ...

"Using audio is not going away any time soon (if ever), therefore educating photographers about the proper use of such tools, and pointing out stress signals to avoid causing them from our beloved subjects can only be a good thing towards nature. Audio is certainly not for everyone, but for most of us who do choose to employ it openly we do so the most ethical way possible (I understand everyones' ethics vary)...and hopefully educate others along the way.

Paul Lagasi...

I have no problems with the use of calls (and have used them on occasion) in areas that aren't heavily birded AND where it is not illegal! My understanding is that is not legal in National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges, and many state parks. It is considered harassment of wildlife (alteration of behavior by the playing of the tape).

Arthur Morris said:

...The guy got all the photographers to donate their images, quite a few decent ones in fact, and has sold a zillion of them by undercutting all of the other products, the ones that paid photographers fairly. Shame on all of those who gave this guy their images for nothing. Hats off to the guy for being smart enough to get good, free images and make boatloads of money.

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Hm, although not related to this topic, it is interesting to know. You said in several occasions that bird photo sales
are down recently. Don't you think a similar thing is happening as in the music industry. They are struggling to invent a
new business model that will include the free flow of information and music products on the internet.
The band Radiohead for example offered their latest album on the internet with optional and voluntary fee.
I think it worked for them. If I gave you voluntarily a cent each time I look at one of your photos....

Interesting stuff Ilija. I do not know much at all about the music industry <smile>

Interesting thoughts on bird calling. I think I prefer Daniel's results to those of duck and goose hunters. I'm not anti-hunting by the way. It's something I've grown away from in favor of photography.

Just curious- Should I take my feeders down? What about "fake" perches? I don't see using audio to attract birds as being any worse than someone say... throwing fish to Eagles? or baiting hawks with mice. I probably wouldn't do it... or any of the baiting tricks... or fake perches... but I certainly don't condemn those that do. It's personal preference. Automobile traffic, little kids with bb guns, domestic cats, etc... do more harm to birds than mp3 audio does (IMHO)

Aside from a one time (to be repeated) trip to Bosque I typically don't frequent heavily photographed areas. I tend to pack my "stuff" away from the crowds if I can. However, the reality is that most of my bird shots are the result of opportunity and good fortune rather than hard work and I'm good with that

Michael Lloyd said:

Just curious- Should I take my feeders down? What about "fake" perches? I don't see using audio to attract birds as being any worse than someone say... throwing fish to Eagles? or baiting hawks with mice. I probably wouldn't do it... or any of the baiting tricks... or fake perches...

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Hi Michael, I think the difference between the above and using audio is that with (say) a feeder the subject is getting a benefit where from using audio to attract JUST for the sake of a photograph it is not, and it may well be detrimental IMHO

Tell

Tell Dickinson said:

Hi Michael, I think the difference between the above and using audio is that with (say) a feeder the subject is getting a benefit where from using audio to attract JUST for the sake of a photograph it is not, and it may well be detrimental IMHO

Tell

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Hmmm... I don't know. Feeders run out of food. Birds become dependent on them. The reality is that any time we interact with nature we affect it. I see the word :JUST" but I also have another viewpoint. How does any of us know what the photographers intent is? I don't shoot anything "just" for the sake of capturing the image. Perhaps, like most of us here, the photographer is trying to capture a piece of time that only he or she has access to so that others can enjoy what he or she has seen?

Tell Dickinson said:

Hi Michael, I think the difference between the above and using audio is that with (say) a feeder the subject is getting a benefit where from using audio to attract JUST for the sake of a photograph it is not, and it may well be detrimental IMHO

Tell

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But let's not forget that unmaintained, unkempt, and dirty feeders can and will cause and spread disease, and also may well be even more detrimental. Some people feed birds JUST for the sake of seeing them, but nobody gets on grandma's or auntie's (or whoever else's) back for doing so! Just like anything else, including audio, there is care to be taken. Just as there are some people's ethics that prevent them from attracting birds via audio, there are other's ethics that prevent them from feeding birds - even just seeds. I'm fine with that, but if you do use audio (or feeders), just know that that are things you can and should do to prevent negative impacts on your subjects.

Thanks everyone for all your input so far, the discussion has been great, and both sides have good points to make.

Daniel Cadieux said:

Some people feed birds JUST for the sake of seeing them, but nobody gets on grandma's or auntie's (or whoever else's) back for doing so!

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Hi Daniel, there is a great difference IMHO With feeders etc the bird is free to come and go whenever it likes, no pressure whatsoever, but with audio its 'instincts' are to investigate the bogus source which means the birds behavior has been needlessly altered, whether this was to defend its territory or just stopping it looking for food perhaps to feed its youngsters etc I believe that in these circumstances the bird always loses out to some extent and never gains any benefit

Tell

Tell Dickinson said:

Hi Daniel, there is a great difference IMHO With feeders etc the bird is free to come and go whenever it likes, no pressure whatsoever, but with audio its 'instincts' are to investigate the bogus source which means the birds behavior has been needlessly altered, whether this was to defend its territory or just stopping it looking for food perhaps to feed its youngsters etc I believe that in these circumstances the bird always loses out to some extent and never gains any benefit

Tell

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The same could be said about simply being near a bird's territory. Simply sharing the planet with humans is the biggest threat to birds, IMO. Everything we humans do impacts them with the destruction of their habitat being their largest threat by far. It amazes me when people devote themselves to protecting birds from things that are relatively harmless while ignoring the overwhelming threat birds face whenever development occurs and wipes out their habitat.

Even feeders may be a threat to small birds as they typicaly attract predators. We can argue that just about anything we humans do is detrimental to birds. Why not focus these efforts on the MOST threatening issues. It's something to think about anyway.

Jim Neiger said:

The same could be said about simply being near a bird's territory. Simply sharing the planet with humans is the biggest threat to birds, IMO.

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Hi Jim, I agree to a certain extent, however lots of disturbance cannot be stopped however much we try and its always possible to state scenarios that seem to prove one point of view or another, but what seems to be missed is that we are talking about is using audio for DELIBERATE disturbance of a bird JUST for a PHOTOGRAPH which in 99% of cases will just lie on someones computer without ever seeing the light of day, I personally do not see the justification in this.

Tell

Tell Dickinson said:

Hi Jim, I agree to a certain extent, however lots of disturbance cannot be stopped however much we try and its always possible to state scenarios that seem to prove one point of view or another, but what seems to be missed is that we are talking about is using audio for DELIBERATE disturbance of a bird JUST for a PHOTOGRAPH which in 99% of cases will just lie on someones computer without ever seeing the light of day, I personally do not see the justification in this.

Tell

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Photographs may be used to educate the public and build support for fighting the larger more meaningful battles. Birds are very used to hearing other birds call. It is a natural occurance that happens all the time. Perhaps we should gag them so they don't disturb each other.

I'm upstairs at my desk. Ted is not home yet. I hear his voice "Heyya Grace, I'm home". I reply, "Hi Ted". No answer. I get up to look around, confused. I hear him again, yet no footsteps and I cannot see him. The confusion mounts and fear creaps in. I search the rest of the house, still no Ted, yet I hear his voice again and again, agitation and panic mount.

The use of audio is not for me.

Jim Neiger said:

Photographs may be used to educate the public and build support for fighting the larger more meaningful battles.

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Hi Jim, as I said you can always find scenarios to try and prove one point or another, but I do not think that most disturbances will result in photographs being used for the above so the disturbance seems more likely to be for the photographer's benefit than the species. A lot of wildlife have enough trouble just surviving without man DELIBERATELY making it harder.

Jim Neiger said:

Birds are very used to hearing other birds call. It is a natural occurance that happens all the time. Perhaps we should gag them so they don't disturb each other.

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The comment was hopefully said in jest and not a serious comment on a very serious subject

Tell

Often when discussing something there comes a time to agree to disagree...

This is another case of where do you draw the line. Simply being in the field can disturb wildlife. We ALL do this deliberately and just to get photographs or observe the wildlife. Our mere presence can cause disturbances. I guess my position is that we should all draw our own lines where we feel comfortable drawing them. The thing that bugs me is when some people try to force other people to draw the line where they think it should be instead of letting folks decide for themselves. I'm all for discussion, but when folks start judging the actions of others or trying to dictate the behavior of others that's where I bow out.

I think Daniel did a very good job describing his method and what the signs of distress are. In my opinion this thread educates on the subject, which I find important since people use audio files to attract birds. I think people who use audio equipment should know as much as possible about their subject and make common sense and informed decisions such as not to use it when birds would leave or even abandon the nest, or stop when birds of the same species hear the sound and start fighting with each other, etc.

Axel Hildebrandt said:

I think Daniel did a very good job describing his method and what the signs of distress are. In my opinion this thread educates on the subject, which I find important since people use audio files to attract birds. I think people who use audio equipment should know as much as possible about their subject and make common sense and informed decisions such as not to use it when birds would leave or even abandon the nest, or stop when birds of the same species hear the sound and start fighting with each other, etc.

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Axel,

Thanks for getting this thread back on track.

Daniel,
I apologize for my part in taking it off track in the first place. I think your purpose for this was more of a how to do this properly thread than a is it right or wrong thread. Using audio recordings is a very complicated subject that few know much about. Most of the stuff I've read about it has been shear speculation.

Tell, Have you ever considered that the judicious playing of a bird's song might sharpen the bird's territorial defenses?