In The Field Etiquette

[Ian McHenry]

Interesting website Artie.
Good to see your still meeting the challenge, and turning a possible negative into a positive.
Cheers: Ian Mc

 

[Andrew McCullough]

I've had several such incidents where usually an unknowing amateur photographer has scared off birds or other wildlife. But none compares to my Whale Tail story:
http://www.clarkvision.com/stories/whaletail
(I should have taken pictures of him.)

Roger

That's a great story.

 

[Jim Zipp]

Great stuff, Art!
I think it's good to post this info anywhere and everywhere. It's not always just the amatuers and birders that cause the problems. I have too many stories to recount, but here is one for the record books.

At the north end of the East Pond, Jamaica Bay a few years ago there was an avocet well out in the water. A friend was already working the bird and was getting almost close enough to pay off as I stood watching from the shoreline. All of a sudden a helicopter flew over and hovered over the photographer. It was low and loud. Needless to say the avocet took off, not to be seen again. Turns out the chopper was part of a police operation. They were looking for a distraught man and thought maybe Johann was him!

- Paul

I was there that day! He definitely took it better than I would have. I can recall numerous times in the past with this issue in the field but won't bother but do think it's a great thing to bring up and talk about for sure.

 

[Dan Brown]

This one has a different twist to it. I was leading a group of birding friends around South Padre Island, TX a few years back and visited a small patch of willows on a vacant lot (a very popular birding spot on the Isle that many of you my be familiar with). We wandered into the trees and were suddenly upon a photo blind containing a photographer (a good pro). He proceded to become upset with us as we were "too close" to him, and he was right, we were too close (10 yards) for the birds to visit his drip. As a photographer, I agreed with him and promptly retreated. But, as birders, my friends and I didn't think that the pro photographer really had the right to dominate one of the very best spots on the little island to see migrants. We had traveled a long ways to bird in South Texas and felt shorted that we couldn't bird at that spot (out of respect for this pro, whom was a very nice person also!). As a photographer (not a pro), I wouldn't expect to be able to set up and "own" a spot like that. My 2 cents.

 

[CliveTonge]

Thanks for sharing that Artie.
I think you posted something similar in the past because I recognize the first story.
I am still learning all of this, so I really appreciate the time and effort you have made to educate everyone.
In the spring I found a great place to get photographs of shorebirds. After visiting a few times and meeting a couple of photographers I learned what they expected of their fellows. At least I learned to approach slowly and wait to be to be invited over.
One morning a photographer suddenly jumped up and went crashing though the reeds and grasses along the side of the water. He was trying to get a picture of an unusual bird. As you can guess no one got a picture.
A while later I was speaking with a regular, he told me that, he had spoken to the guy on a number of occasions, for doing the same thing, but it made no difference. sigh. He explained that there was no point in staying after an episode like that. By the time the birds returned the light wouldn't be any good. So he would call it a day or go someplace else. He went on to say if he saw this fellow in the area normally he would leave before the guy had a chance to ruin his morning.
Take care,
Clive

 

[Michael Lloyd]

Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque. I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting. There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer. I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst. That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

 

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Michael,

I am quite confused by much of what you say below.

re:

Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque.

Is your problem with folks using flash in the pre-dawn or only with those using a Better Beamer?

I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting.

Same question is a different form: will you use flash without a Better Beamer when other photographers around?

There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer.

Please explain how folks using a flash with a Better Beamer are blasting the pre-dawn into 255, 255, 255.

I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst.

Are you doing scenics when this occurs? If not, what sort of shutter speeds and lenses are you using?

That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

You say that you do not like the look of images created by folks using flash with a Beamer. Sorry to burst your bubble but using a Better Beamer does not change the look of an image as compared to one created using flash without a Beamer. A Beamer is simply a wider hose that turns off automatically when the bucket is full. It saves you battery power and gives you greater reach (by concentrating the light from the flash).

There are two instances where using a Beamer can cause flash over-exposure:

1-when you are working small birds very close to the camera; with the increased flash output that comes with using the Beamer it is possible that the flash will not be able to shut off into without "over-flowing the bucket." In such cases I advise folks to remove the fresnel screen and work at -3 stops and/or to lower the diffusion screen.

2-likewise, folks using a Beamer on more distant subjects while working in Manual mode are more likely to overexpose their test images than folks not using a Beamer as their flash output is greater. But this problem can always be solved by reducing the power setting ration.

I am thinking that your problem is with folks using flash rather than with folks using a Better Beamer.

I look forward to your answers to my questions above.

ps: I intended for this thread to be educational in nature and did not anticipate that it would become a repository for "I can't believe this or that person's bad behavior in the field" stories but as a lover of what is I am fine with the way it turned out. As you might image after almost 27 years of doing this I have more than a few of those stories....

 

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks for sharing that Artie. I think you posted something similar in the past because I recognize the first story.Clive

YAW. And yes, this was published both in a Bulletin a while back and also in Nature Photographer magazine.

As for the reed crasher, I do not have any suggestions as to how to deal with him without violence (and I am not in any way suggesting that).

 

[Ed Erkes]

This one has a different twist to it. I was leading a group of birding friends around South Padre Island, TX a few years back and visited a small patch of willows on a vacant lot (a very popular birding spot on the Isle that many of you my be familiar with). We wandered into the trees and were suddenly upon a photo blind containing a photographer (a good pro). He proceded to become upset with us as we were "too close" to him, and he was right, we were too close (10 yards) for the birds to visit his drip. As a photographer, I agreed with him and promptly retreated. But, as birders, my friends and I didn't think that the pro photographer really had the right to dominate one of the very best spots on the little island to see migrants. We had traveled a long ways to bird in South Texas and felt shorted that we couldn't bird at that spot (out of respect for this pro, whom was a very nice person also!). As a photographer (not a pro), I wouldn't expect to be able to set up and "own" a spot like that. My 2 cents.

To me, this situation is a no-brainer--if, as I understand it, this photographer's actions were preventing others from enjoying a public area (meaning there was no way for others to enjoy this birding spot and yet keep a satisfactory distance from the photographer). No photographer, whether pro or not, has the right to monopolize an area at the expense of others who have just as much right to be there. Sometimes, photographers seem to act as if they have special privileges and rights. I once set up a perch in a small pond to try to photograph kingfishers. It was in a fairly remote , but public area, and I was in my blind before dawn. However some fishermen came to the pond shortly after sunrise, so I packed up my gear and left without any ill feelings (other than silently wishing they'd chosen another day or pond to fish). They really had just as much right to be there as I did.

 

[Jim Buescher]

I was set up at a popular scenic overlook in a public area during the peak of the fall colors a few years back. While another photographer and I were waiting for the light to improve, a limo and a few other cars pulled up, a man jumped out of the limo, clapped his hands twice and said to us "OK fella's, wrap it up I have a wedding party to shoot". I told the photographer this was a public area and he'll either have to wait until we're finished or find another location. To make a long story short, I got my landscape images and he got his wedding photos...which included two unknown photographers behind the wedding party! If this professional had approached us and kindly asked if we wouldn't mind stepping aside for a few minutes, I'm sure we would've obliged. So it's not just nature photographers but other working photographers (wedding, photojournalists, etc.) that sometimes feel because it's their job they can "move to the head of the line" in public places. Can you imagine the reaction you would get if you walked up to that wedding photographer while he was busy positioning the bridal party and told him to "wrap it up, I have a landscape to shoot".

 

[Jay Gould]

Jim, you are obviously a much nicer person than I am or have been under the same or similar circumstances. I too have been told to move from a public place in similar circumstances and funny if it didn't take me longer than I originally had planned to vacate my location in a public area.

 

[Desmond Chan]

No photographer, whether pro or not, has the right to monopolize an area at the expense of others who have just as much right to be there. Sometimes, photographers seem to act as if they have special privileges and rights. I once set up a perch in a small pond to try to photograph kingfishers. It was in a fairly remote , but public area, and I was in my blind before dawn. However some fishermen came to the pond shortly after sunrise, so I packed up my gear and left without any ill feelings (other than silently wishing they'd chosen another day or pond to fish). They really had just as much right to be there as I did.

I agree. I don't think how, just because you want your scene to be everything perfect that you have the right to demand everybody else to stay outside that public area while you're waiting for the perfect conditions to press your shutter button. Certainly you can ask other people to do you a favor and stay away for a moment, but if the other folks don't comply, I don't think you have the right to be mad about other people. Ok, you're mad, understandable. They may be rude, but they also do not have to do you a favor. In fact, you actually can be in the way of other people, too. I don't know, perhaps some of you are pros and so you must have that shot. Other than that, as an amateur, yeah, I miss the shot, happens all the time. Some people are rude and some are not. We may even be one of them on some occasions. Besides, you don't know who you're dealing with. Life goes on. There's always another shot. And then there is Photoshop

 

[Roger Clark]

I agree. I don't think how, just because you want your scene to be everything perfect that you have the right to demand everybody else to stay outside that public area while you're waiting for the perfect conditions to press your shutter button.

Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

 

[Desmond Chan]

Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

I think you should have explained your situation to them. I would (I once asked a wedding photog to wait, too, but only for a 15, 30 sec). Perhaps they would have done you a favor and moved somewhere else, if what they were about to do could have been done somewhere else. You think the lake is big enough they could have been at other spot. They may also be thinking the same thing: "This lake is large enough...why the **** this guy with a big camera has to pick this spot where we fish everyday?" This may be cliche but communication between the parties may have helped here. You know, we are here thinking from the perspective of a photographer. What about the perspective of the other party? Are we assuming that the other party must understand and see things our way? You never know, perhaps right now in other internet forum, people are complaining how arrogant some photogs are, like because they have the camera they rule the world

 

[Ed Erkes]

Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

This is a situation where I would have explained what I was trying to do and ask if it was possible for them to fish a little to one side or the other. Of course, all you can do is ask. They may or may not help you out. But, unless this was a particular hot spot for them, the polite thing for them to have done was to go somewhere else. If you had been fishing at that spot, I doubt they would have moved in front of you without asking.

 

[denise ippolito]

I was at Sandy Hook one early morning laying in the cold shallow water crawling up on the only shore birds around, (a few Sanderlings -which can be very skittish). I had been inching my way up for at least a half an hour after a pretty good hike in w/ my tripod and 500mm. I am not a really big/strong girl and for me to move my tripod that was set-up as low as it could go w/ my Wimberley arm and my 500mm lens I had to skootch(sp?) up on my knees and crawl up. Doing this while not scaring the birds. Anyway I noticed a fisherman out of the corner of my eye. He was heading my way so I waved him on to go behind me. Figuring he would see the set-up and just walk around me. Well he didn't -he walked right in front of my camera and scared all the birds away. I said thanks!-He said "No problem!" w/ a smirk. I won't repeat what I said back to him. I was mad at him. Not because he scared the birds away, but because he did it on purpose.

 

[Michael Lloyd]

Hi Michael,

I am quite confused by much of what you say below.

re:

Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque.

Is your problem with folks using flash in the pre-dawn or only with those using a Better Beamer?

I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting.

Pre-dawn Artie and flash with or without a "booster". I don't care if someone uses a Better Beamer. It's not my favorite tool in the bag but it is nonetheless a tool so it would be hypocritical of me to complain in a general way. Besides that it's really none of my concern unless it impacts what I'm doing.

Same question is a different form: will you use flash without a Better Beamer when other photographers around?

There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer.

Please explain how folks using a flash with a Better Beamer are blasting the pre-dawn into 255, 255, 255.

If I'm set up on... say... Sandhills... and shooting at high ISO wide open and at the right shutter speed to yield good exposure, if someone shoots at or near the same time as I do, in the general direction of where I'm shooting my shot is going to be overexposed. BB's in a crowd are bad etiquette IMHO...

I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst.

Are you doing scenics when this occurs? If not, what sort of shutter speeds and lenses are you using?

800mm / 600mm lens. ISO H - 1600 depending on light on a 1DMK3. As described above.

That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

You say that you do not like the look of images created by folks using flash with a Beamer. Sorry to burst your bubble but using a Better Beamer does not change the look of an image as compared to one created using flash without a Beamer. A Beamer is simply a wider hose that turns off automatically when the bucket is full. It saves you battery power and gives you greater reach (by concentrating the light from the flash).

There are two instances where using a Beamer can cause flash over-exposure:

1-when you are working small birds very close to the camera; with the increased flash output that comes with using the Beamer it is possible that the flash will not be able to shut off into without "over-flowing the bucket." In such cases I advise folks to remove the fresnel screen and work at -3 stops and/or to lower the diffusion screen.

2-likewise, folks using a Beamer on more distant subjects while working in Manual mode are more likely to overexpose their test images than folks not using a Beamer as their flash output is greater. But this problem can always be solved by reducing the power setting ration.

I am thinking that your problem is with folks using flash rather than with folks using a Better Beamer.

I look forward to your answers to my questions above.

ps: I intended for this thread to be educational in nature and did not anticipate that it would become a repository for "I can't believe this or that person's bad behavior in the field" stories but as a lover of what is I am fine with the way it turned out. As you might image after almost 27 years of doing this I have more than a few of those stories....

Maybe I should have said flash rather than flash with BB. I use the BB... I use flash... rarely and as needed. But rarely. ETTL is not something I've had much luck with and I don't use flash enough (in the field) to intuitively dial in the right amount of power (in manual) on the first shot... In studio I can walk up to my subject with a Sekonics, trigger the lights, read the meter and adjust the lights if needed. For some reason I've never had much luck doing that with birds or other wildlife ) On the other hand, your explanation of what the BB does (BTW- I've tested varying the focal length setting of the flash and it's affect on beam shape and concentration so I'm aware of what it's doing) somewhat illustrates why I think using a BB in a crowd of photographers, during the pre-dawn to dawn hours is rude.

after 27 years I would imagine that you would have seen nearly everything

 

[Roger Clark]

If I'm set up on... say... Sandhills... and shooting at high ISO wide open and at the right shutter speed to yield good exposure, if someone shoots at or near the same time as I do, in the general direction of where I'm shooting my shot is going to be overexposed. BB's in a crowd are bad etiquette IMHO...

I'm surprised this is an issue for you. If you are shooting at typical exposure times, say 1/250 second or faster, then in any one second, you have a 1/250 chance of exposing when another flash was going off if there was a flash per second happening. So a very low probability. Flash is a very short duration, much less than a millisecond. In all the decades I've been photographing, I've never had someone else's flash go off in one of my exposures.

Now if you were doing 10 frames a second and multiple other people were doing 10 frames a second with flash on the same subject, then it would be an issue, but even then I would bet only a few frames would be contaminated.

Roger

 

[Michael Lloyd]

If the 1DMK4 was out I could see being able to shoot at 1/250th or faster in the pre-dawn hours. Maybe. The jury is still out on ultra-high ISO performance and the if there is no light then who knows. Panning shots of sandhills taking off at slow shutter speeds and / or attempts to get a standing shot are about all that I can think of to get during that time. Every now and then it works out. I guess I should say that the shot MAY have been ruined by the flash person. I've seen the same thing happen at night football games btw. And... come to think of it, when shooting day soccer and the lady across the field was shooting back toward me with her point and shoot. I've seen elk herds spooked when a lady blasted out of her RV with her point and shoot. Two of us were shooting from a tripod and, until the flash went off, having a good time watching and shooting elk.

I've been shooting for 4 decades plus and shooting birds since 2006. Bosque since last year. Last year I had a couple of shots ruined at Bosque ( Maybe I have bad luck?) and it's the first time that I had ever seen someone use a Better Beamer / flash in a crowd of photographers. This year the pre-dawn flash user count was much higher.

 

[Rocky Sharwell]

I've been shooting for 4 decades plus and shooting birds since 2006. Bosque since last year. Last year I had a couple of shots ruined at Bosque ( Maybe I have bad luck?) and it's the first time that I had ever seen someone use a Better Beamer / flash in a crowd of photographers. This year the pre-dawn flash user count was much higher.

I don't have a problem with anyone using flash in the predawn hours--with or without a beatter beamer. I also don't see anything wrong with politely asking others in the crowd to avoid using flash for a few seconds--Someone did that last year while I was doing early am flash blurrs at the Venice Rookery and people cooperated.