Manual vs Av and Other Modes

[Steven Kersting]

That's what it supposed to do but in reality, most if not all the time it can't follow the subject through the frame. Perhaps it would if the subject is slow enough. I heard that it works for large subject that moves side to side, like when shooting a tennis player from the side line.

There are several variables that affect the accuracy of the tracking. One of the biggest is the focus delay setting (if your camera has it, entry level models don't give any control over it). Basically, if the subject is too fast for autofocus, if you can't keep the subject in the primary FOV, or if the focus delay is set too short it won't work well.
In those cases I'll usually have to set up with either "trap focus" (just flip to single servo, but it still won't work for fast small subjects), or zone focus. But if I'm doing that, I'm probably pretty stationary with a subject that I can anticipate (or I'm trying anyways). In that case I would also probably switch towards more manual control.

But that said, it doesn't matter because the issue isn't camera settings it's metering error. If you can anticipate it and eliminate it, it's not a problem.

Hate to tell you, Steven, but I do find your way to get the exposure is...kind of complicated :bg3:

It is. I stated earlier that to be fluent with the auto modes is more difficult than full manual, and it still won't always work reliably.

For me it is easier, once I've made a couple of decisions I often don't have to change any primary setting. Maybe switch metering modes or add EC.

But again, it largely comes down to shooting style/subject. I tend to think more about "getting the shot" and not about "getting the perfect shot". If I am working differently (i.e. stationary) I will usually end up with settings much closer to full manual.

 

[Steven Kersting]

When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Whoa, are we talking about running around applying the sunny 16 rule? I've forgotten most of that.

If not, then it always starts with metering. If you are able to compensate for metering errors in manual, then you should be able to do it using an auto mode.

I get that in full manual I can compensate for metering errors once and largely not think about it for a while (shooting style dependent). But you really *should* be thinking about it every time you click the shutter (regardless of method).

 

[jack williamson]

Outstanding discussion! I am here to learn and if you can't learn on this site...well.

Jack

 

[WIlliam Maroldo]

Steve; can you explain to me why you need a meter at all in manual exposure? In manual exposure you are not compensating for anything.

regards~Bill

 

[Don Thompson]

When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

 

[Charles Glatzer]

Metering can always be fooled (regardless of mode)
I agree that for difficult situations Manual may be the only solution for reliable results.

If you are interpeting the meter recommedation, choosing the exposure variables, and physically setting them into the camera how can it be the Meters Fault?

The meter only does what is is programmed to do, it is you who decides what to do with the info provided.

Chas

 

[Arthur Morris]

If not, then it always starts with metering. If you are able to compensate for metering errors in manual, then you should be able to do it using an auto mode.

Steve, I am starting to get frustrated trying to get you to understand the important points below one last time.

When the light is relatively consistent and the background is changing or may change rapidly from moment to moment nobody is smart/fast enough to work in an automatic mode like Av. So we determine the correct exposure (usually via a histogram/blinkies check) for a given subject and then set that exposure manually. If a subject with a different tonality comes along it is easy to make the required changes quickly and easily say by adjusting the shutter speed (as most of us have learned to do).

As has been said above in so many words, trying to spot meter a bird in flight is totally insane.

Respectfully.

 

[Charles Glatzer]

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

Don,

The Meter provides a recommendation, which may or may not be the correct exposure, it is up to you to know what to do with the suggestion according to the choice of pattern and tonal values therein. Many are under the false assumption that if they center/null the meter manually or the camera does it in Auto Mode that the correct exposure has been found.

Chas

 

[WIlliam Maroldo]

Don

Don, remember way back when Ofer started this post? I shoot exactly the same way, although occasionally I'll let the camera pick the shutter-speed, not because it produces better results, it doesn't, but after a few hundred (or thousand) shots I get a bit fatigued and I start making errors.
Read Ofers post, ignore everything else, and you'll be OK.

Thanks for your comments guys!
Melissa, here is the "secret" how I expose.... I simply NEVER expose AV or TV - only Manual. I always expose in a way that the brightest element in the image (particularly on the bird) is almost hot - in this case the white. You should have the highlight alert ON. Exposing manually with the histogram pushed as much as possible to the right without burning anything will result in the best possible image with the best signal to noise ratio, and the best colours. It may not look very nice in camera as it will be a bit bright but when opened in photoshop and adjusted a bit you will see the beauty of this technique. Don't relay on the camera to do this simple thing for you when you can do it so much better.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o></o>Just my 2 cents,<o></o>
<o></o>Cheers,Ofer<o></o>

My and Ofer's 2 cents. regards~Bill

 

[Arthur Morris]

Don, re:

Originally Posted by Arthur Morris: When someone gets the wrong exposure in Manual mode it is because either they have been fooled or because they made a mental error. Manual mode is not metering, it is an expression of how smart (or dumb) the operator is....

Please explain further. Do I not use the meter in the camera to tell when I have the correct exposure. Or do I just SWAG it and until I have enough experience to get the exposure correct, I just pray I am correct?

Maybe I am dense, and this may be clear to those of you who have done this for years/decades, but to me with less experience, I am more confused than ever.

Sorry.

No problema. Even when you are in Manual mode the metering pattern that you have set is active. When you play with the shutter speed and the aperture the indicator of over or under-exposure on the analog scale in your viewfinder changes. It is the photographer through study and understanding and with digital, via histogram/blinkies checking who determines where the indicator should be resting.

Please see my next post here. It may help

 

[Arthur Morris]

Working in Manual Mode

Below is a feature from an old Bulletin that may help the newer folks.

I still plan on doing a blog post on when and why I use various modes not just manual

WORKING IN MANUAL MODE

Here is an excerpt from ABP II for those who need help with working in Manual mode.

Many professional and serious amateur photographers work in Manual mode most of the time. I do not because working in Av mode and entering exposure compensation is faster whenever the background is of a relatively constant tonality. When the background tonality is changing from moment to moment but the light is constant, it is best, however, to work in Manual mode. In either case, I rely on Evaluative Metering. Here are some examples of rapidly changing backgrounds: a shorebird on a rock along the edge of the ocean with waves breaking behind it. Birds flying against a blue sky with occasional white clouds. Cranes flying by in front of a variety of backgrounds that might include sky, mountains, yellowed grasses, or water.
As many folks are confused as to how to work in or set exposure compensation when working in Manual mode, I offer the following basic tutorial.

#1: When you work in Manual mode you select and set the shutter speed and you select and set the aperture. With my Canon cameras the default has you changing the shutter speed with your index finger dial and the aperture with the thumb wheel.

#2: After selecting Manual mode, point your camera at a scene or stationary subject and lock your tripod head so the framing remains constant. Next select and set the desired aperture. Then adjust the shutter speed until the analog scale in the viewfinder nulls out to zero. With Canon pro bodies this scale is laid out vertically along the right side of the viewfinder display (when you are working in horizontal format). With many of the pro-sumer bodies the analog scale is laid out horizontally at the bottom of the viewfinder display. The zero or null indicator is at the center of the analog scale. The three full stops above the null symbol (marked in 1/3-stop increments) indicate overexposure. The three full stops below the null symbol (also marked in 1/3-stop increments) indicate underexposure. If you change the aperture and you do not see the small square moving, check either the top or the bottom of the analog scale. You will note a small triangle at the top if you are way overexposed or a small triangle at the bottom if you are way underexposed. If the former, rotate the dial and choose faster shutter speeds, if the latter, choose slower shutter speeds. In either case, you will soon see the small square moving up or down the analog scale. At first, you will simply want to practice nulling the meter, that is, getting the small square to rest on the null symbol. This indicates that you have now set the metered exposure (as determined by the camera's Evaluative Metering system.

#3: When you work in Manual mode it is not possible to set exposure compensation. To come up with the exposure that you wish, simply change the aperture or shutter speed as above until the small square indicates the amount of over- or under-exposure that you desire. If you wish to work at +2 stops, you need adjust either the shutter speed or the aperture until the small square rests on the symbol that is two full stops above the null symbol. If you wish to underexpose by 1/3 stop, you need adjust either the shutter speed or the aperture until the small square rests on the symbol that lies just below the null symbol.

With a bit of practice you should quickly become comfortable whenever the need to work in Manual mode arises.

 

[Charles Glatzer]

Steve; can you explain to me why you need a meter at all in manual exposure? In manual exposure you are not compensating for anything.

regards~Bill

Bill,

The meter pattern provides a suggestion in any/all Priority Modes, thereafter you more than likely wiill need to alter the initial recommendation by adding or subtracting exposure via f/stop, shutter-speed, ISO or a combination therein to obtain the correct exposure for the subject at hand.

Meter patterns, reference values, etc are used to determine Exposure, regardless of the Priority mode being used.

Chas

 

[Charles Glatzer]

Below is a feature from an old Bulletin that may help the newer folks.

I still plan on doing a blog post on when and why I use various modes not just manual

WORKING IN MANUAL MODE

Here is an excerpt from ABP II for those who need help with working in Manual mode.

Many professional and serious amateur photographers work in Manual mode most of the time. I do not because working in Av mode and entering exposure compensation is faster whenever the background is of a relatively constant tonality. When the background tonality is changing from moment to moment but the light is constant, it is best, however, to work in Manual mode. In either case, I rely on Evaluative Metering. Here are some examples of rapidly changing backgrounds: a shorebird on a rock along the edge of the ocean with waves breaking behind it. Birds flying against a blue sky with occasional white clouds. Cranes flying by in front of a variety of backgrounds that might include sky, mountains, yellowed grasses, or water.
As many folks are confused as to how to work in or set exposure compensation when working in Manual mode, I offer the following basic tutorial.

#1: When you work in Manual mode you select and set the shutter speed and you select and set the aperture. With my Canon cameras the default has you changing the shutter speed with your index finger dial and the aperture with the thumb wheel.

#2: After selecting Manual mode, point your camera at a scene or stationary subject and lock your tripod head so the framing remains constant. Next select and set the desired aperture. Then adjust the shutter speed until the analog scale in the viewfinder nulls out to zero. With Canon pro bodies this scale is laid out vertically along the right side of the viewfinder display (when you are working in horizontal format). With many of the pro-sumer bodies the analog scale is laid out horizontally at the bottom of the viewfinder display. The zero or null indicator is at the center of the analog scale. The three full stops above the null symbol (marked in 1/3-stop increments) indicate overexposure. The three full stops below the null symbol (also marked in 1/3-stop increments) indicate underexposure. If you change the aperture and you do not see the small square moving, check either the top or the bottom of the analog scale. You will note a small triangle at the top if you are way overexposed or a small triangle at the bottom if you are way underexposed. If the former, rotate the dial and choose faster shutter speeds, if the latter, choose slower shutter speeds. In either case, you will soon see the small square moving up or down the analog scale. At first, you will simply want to practice nulling the meter, that is, getting the small square to rest on the null symbol. This indicates that you have now set the metered exposure (as determined by the camera's Evaluative Metering system.

#3: When you work in Manual mode it is not possible to set exposure compensation. To come up with the exposure that you wish, simply change the aperture or shutter speed as above until the small square indicates the amount of over- or under-exposure that you desire. If you wish to work at +2 stops, you need adjust either the shutter speed or the aperture until the small square rests on the symbol that is two full stops above the null symbol. If you wish to underexpose by 1/3 stop, you need adjust either the shutter speed or the aperture until the small square rests on the symbol that lies just below the null symbol.

With a bit of practice you should quickly become comfortable whenever the need to work in Manual mode arises.

Badda Bing!!! :bg3:

Chas

 

[Don Thompson]

Below is a feature from an old Bulletin that may help the newer folks.

I still plan on doing a blog post on when and why I use various modes not just manual

WORKING IN MANUAL MODE

Here is an excerpt from ABP II for those who need help with working in Manual mode.

Thank you. Very simple and easy to understand. This is as I understood it. All the other discussions had me confused and thinking that me doubting myself.

Now, understanding and doing, especially quickly, is another matter. Still looking forward to your post as to more information on when to use all the different modes.

 

[Arthur Morris]

Many thanks Don. :S3: I can teach, and I can write, and I can make things simple and understandable. All of those every bit as much responsible for my success as my images. Though those don't suck either!

 

[Steven Kersting]

Steve, I am starting to get frustrated trying to get you to understand the important points below one last time.

When the light is relatively consistent and the background is changing or may change rapidly from moment to moment nobody is smart/fast enough to work in an automatic mode like Av. So we determine the correct exposure (usually via a histogram/blinkies check) for a given subject and then set that exposure manually. If a subject with a different tonality comes along it is easy to make the required changes quickly and easily say by adjusting the shutter speed (as most of us have learned to do).

As has been said above in so many words, trying to spot meter a bird in flight is totally insane.

Respectfully.

You're probably getting frustrated because you think I must be dense, you must be right, and there is no validity to what I am saying.

Let me give you an example assuming I am stationary with a scene I can pre expose and push the exposure to the right (i generally don't do that though) based upon the histogram/blinkies.

In this case I will probably be in manual mode but I will have the iso set to an auto range. For various subjects I will use EC or change metering pattern and the camera will trade ISO (I paid a lot of money for that ISO performance). If I choose to change aperture or SS for the scene (not subject. i.e. I suddenly care about shallow DOF more than optimal aperture) then the auto ISO will correct back to my original exposure. If I choose to both change metering mode and aperture for subject and scene I hold down a button (change metering mode) and rotate a dial and click, the ISO adjusts to give me a good exposure....all in fractions of a second.

If you are in "full manual" your first/ perhaps only option is to give on Aperture or SS (changing ISO manually on my Nikon is the hardest thing to do). Those are both things I'd rather not "give" on first.

In most cases Aperture is the critical choice. In those cases I will be in aperture priority with the camera set to an auto ISO range. In that case the camera will make exactly the same choices I would make. It will trade ISO first, then it will trade SS. To adjust for variances in subject I change metering mode or EC. Usually the only thing I have to do is change metering mode. Again, I'm giving on ISO first because that's what I care the least about.

If you can give on ISO first in full manual as quickly as you can SS/aperture, then great. If not I would suggest that my method is probably "better". It is for me.

As for the dynamic spot metering...ok, but I have good results. Not perfect, but good. If the metering is off, so is the focus. I much more often have auto focus issues than I have exposure issues with BIF. (I don't find trap/zone focus a suitable alternative for BIF) This is an area I am still working on as I have not found a great solution.

I did admit to having many more images using center weighted metering than spot, but I also have many more images taken w/ a D200/D300 than my current D3.

We don't have to agree, but I'm not an idiot. I learned manual mode when that's all there was and I could even get decent results from my FM when the battery froze and the meter died.

 

[Steven Kersting]

Steve; can you explain to me why you need a meter at all in manual exposure? In manual exposure you are not compensating for anything.

regards~Bill

What do you use as your starting point for exposure? How do you know if you have enough compensation set?

I suppose you could start with "f/16, SS=ISO". I had to do that on more than a few occasions *a long time ago*....

 

[Geoff Warnock]

Steven, nicely explained. Perhaps it is your point, but I would not consider using AutoISO in manual mode 'working manually', in fact I think it's near the same level as using aperture priority - the camera is choosing your exposure by altering ISO.

I too use Nikon, and have used autoISO, but mainly for indoor people photography. It's a useful tool, though I rarely use it lately.

I too also use manual when the background is changing, or in a tough exposure situation (sports - rugby - where one team is in a light coloured strip with the other in black for example) but tend to use Av with some exp compensation whenever possible otherwise. As Artie says - I find it faster.

 

[Elliotte Rusty Harold]

Let me repeat; too fast a shutter-speed will not effect image quality. This gives you any shutter-speed above the the minimum to work with, and any exposure can be achieved with right or left clicks with one just one thumb wheel. Basically you start with a faster speed than you need, reduce toward the motion blur point to increase exposure, and go the other way to decrease exposure. Need more light and you've reached the minimum shutter-speed? Just up the ISO and start over; a higher SS than you need and right or left clicks with the SS thumbwheel as needed.
The starting point is determined with the histogram.
You will always have both the minimum SS and the DOF you need. No errors, no surprises. Being comfortable with higher ISOs and an understanding of digital noise and how it can be minimized becomes important and quite useful with this type of exposure.
So is there anything wrong with this method? Also I can't imagine that this is an original idea.

regards~Bill

That might work in Florida or southern California. In the Northeast in winter and shade, I doubt it. There's just not enough light. Even shooting at the maximum ISO I can plausibly use on my camera (800), I pretty much need to be at wide open aperture (f/4 or f/5.6 depending on lens) to hope to get *up* to the desired shutter speed. Coming down to that speed is not an option. Shutter speeds range from about 1/60 to 1/800. If the sun actually deigns to come out, and I'm not shooting under trees, then I'll drop the ISO to 400, and maybe then if I'm still getting shutter speeds over 1/1000 I'll consider manual exposure.

At more southerly latitudes, or in summer, it's not hard to get enough sun to shoot at 1/1250 and f/11. There you're right that you do have a lot more room to play with the shutter speed. I don't meter the same way in southern Texas I do in southern New York, especially not in winter. But 9-10 months out of the year up here in New York the only plausible aperture is wide open, especially for handheld cameras or moving subjects. That value is essentially fixed no matter what metering mode you use. And at that maximum aperture, I'm taking the best shutter speed I can get, not picking the one I want. :-(

 

[Greg Basco]

Interesting discussion all around on this thread. I would simply add that choice of modes may differ according to what and where one is photographing.

I shoot full-time in tropical rainforests and, as Eliotte implies above, that is another place that is quite different from the kinds of things and the kind of environment in which many posters on this thread apparently are shooting.

I shoot about half the time in manual mode with spot metering and half the time in aperture priority with evaluative metering. As Chas and Arthur have stressed, understanding what's going on and then knowing when to use what to get what you want in your image is the key.

Cheers,
Greg Basco